Israel at war
- Thread starter Butler1000
- Start date
Absolutely.
Exactly! Both are just as unrelenting and unaccommodating as each other. Heck our TERB members (including myself) who have nothing to do with either peoples, are unrelenting, so just imagine the Israelis and the Palestinians!
And yet, I'm still waffling from day-to-day over my feelings on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. I love to be convinced to change my mind. Yet, I hate to be bullshitted or tried to be played.
Yes, this is what I feel too.
Seems that it doesn't matter who the defender or aggressor is, or who is fundamentally right or wrong in so many conflicts.
Worse, it doesn't seem like we ever learn from history.
Worst of all, is the realization that all the 1970 and 80's Beauty Pageant contestants who said their one wish was "World Peace" had better values than we gave them credit for. And bigger delusions.
Thanks, I will have a look at them and see if they hold my ADD interest.
🐿It's not that I don't know about the basic history. Wayyy before the Brit's promised the Palestinians this for being allies against the Ottomans and then gettin double crossed when the beleagured jewish people were granted a state to declare as their own place of safety etc etc. It's that I don't know how far back or how offended /spiteful is reasonable to draw the line at. And where to go from here. In practical terms. Call be a bigot or whatever, but both Arabs and Jews can be pretty fucking stubborn , never mind conflict between them.
And who the fuck am I to impose my safe high living lifestyle morality and values or offer opinions on the lives and futures of the descendants of goat herders?
I'm also researching whose pussy I want to throw ten bags of flour worth of cash into later tonight.
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It’s Israel that supplies most of the explosives that Hamas uses.
www.timesofisrael.com
.
Much of Hamas’s explosives comes from IDF fire that failed to detonate — report
New York Times says terrorists in Gaza cut open Israeli-fired duds to create rockets; theft from IDF is also major source of weapons
www.timesofisrael.com
It’s Israel that supplies most of the explosives that Hamas uses.
.Much of Hamas’s explosives comes from IDF fire that failed to detonate — report
New York Times says terrorists in Gaza cut open Israeli-fired duds to create rockets; theft from IDF is also major source of weapons
Karma?
You haven't been reading these threads, have you?
Nor have you listened to Israeli politicians or Israelis who have been blocking aid or settlers attacking the west bank?
You need to start from the understanding that Israel has been occupying Palestine for 75 years and is still taking more land through 'settlements' and consider if that have something to do with anger from Palestinians. This is still an active and ongoing settler colonial enterprise.
Here's what should be an easy question, schlong.
Palestinians are living under what is internationally recognized as an illegal occupation. Do they have the right to self defence against this illegal occupation? Do you believe Palestinians have this basic human right?
Every single Israeli supporter on this board says they do not have that basic human right. If you prod further, they will refuse to say that Palestinians have any rights and indeed, most Palestinians under Israeli occupation are considered stateless refugees and under Israeli rule they have zero rights.
The UN, Amnesty, HRW and B'tselem have reported three levels of apartheid in Israel, from 'Israeli Arabs' to those in Jerusalem to those living as stateless refugees under Israeli military occupation. You just argued that Palestinians can and will live happier lives if they had even mostly full human rights as 'Israeli Arabs' do. Instead Netanyahu funded Hamas for years in order to divide Palestinians and keep them from working towards the two state solution and peace. In 2014 Palestinians in Gaza protested at the borders every Friday for almost a year and were met each week by Israeli snipers, killing 200 and injuring 14,000. There has not been an avenue for Palestinians to settle peacefully for half a century now, instead there have been 800 attacks by settlers outside of Gaza since Oct 7.
If I'm a a Palestinian (even muslim), I'd rather live a life governed by (even jewish) Israelis. I hear they're pretty good with managing money too
Sigh, you finished with an antisemitic trope.
I did mention the video, I'll discuss it again.
The historian in the video, Hitchens, discusses one historical story he heard third or fourth hand, likely. It may be true and it may not be true. Its quite possible the Muslim leader in the video said something like that and had those attitudes. Racism 150 years ago was everywhere, how long after the end of American slavery was this quote taken? I doubt those attitudes, if the quote is true, were limited to any one religion or people. That's why it makes me ask why you picked this one quote from Hitchens, where he has other attitudes that I doubt you'd agree with, like his views against zionism and Israel.
Posting a quote like that is a setup for arguing that 'the terror that is Islam' as you said, is historically based. But it would be like trying to argue all Germans are nazis because its historically based.
No, I do believe that you are trying to figure things out. I'm just trying to point out that you are coming from a place that already has considerable bias towards Israelis and zionists.
I don't remember that story but glad to hear you are open to change.
On what specific point? The argument that since one Muslim leader 150 years ago was racist and hate filled that you think all Palestinians today are also? Again, that's like posting a video about Hitler in a thread about Germans attitudes and saying 'discuss'. I can find one or more hateful quote from Israeli leaders for every Palestinian/Hamas quote you find, but its not helpful towards discussing solutions.
Start with this.
Do Palestinians deserve equal rights?
But if you're Palestinian and living under a 75 year occupation, inside a 17 year blockade in Gaza and watching settlers take Palestinian land by force throughout the year, what do you?
If you're Israeli, you're there with an army and $3 billion in annual US weapons and have wiped Palestine off the map. The violence is the resistance of the people you are occupying, if you want the violence to stop you need to find a way to end the occupation.
Again, if you are using the Russian metaphor, use it correctly.
Ukraine is being occupied and invaded by Russians.
Palestine is being occupied and invaded by zionists.
To this day Israel is still announcing new 'settlements' on what could have been Palestine.
Really, I'm interested in figuring out how to stop the genocide, end the occupation and allow the two peoples now living in Israel/Palestine to live together. Arguing that Palestinians have no rights to 'ancestral' lands when it is their land and the land of their parents is disingenous, its again arguing that Palestinians have no human rights including the UN ordered and internationally recognized Right of Return.. There are Palestinians in Gaza that are older than Israel.
And you don't know anywhere near enough about me or my friends or our relationships and what we feel comfortable talking about to say anything that doesn't demonstrate how Trumptard-like you have become when it comes to this issue. You couldn't be more wrong. Any more wrong than how I felt you and I had some kindred spirit. Your thoughts and words you express towards me suggest we don't. And that saddens me. Soory to say but you're acting like the Nottyboi of Palestine!
Likewise, I've always enjoyed our discussions and debates on other subjects.
Offline I'd invite you to a coffee with Palestinian friends to really discuss the issues, or to meet up with left wing Jews who are also anti zionist. If you really want to understand the issues you need to talk to Palestinians who will talk to you about their family in Gaza or the West Bank and tell you what life under Israeli occupation is really like. They are just people, most just want to live their lives.
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The super quick history, sure to start lots of debate on its own.
1900's Palestine was pluralistic, Muslim, Christian and Jews under British rule.
1900 - 1930's - the zionist movement decided Israel was their new homeland
WWII - holocaust and horrid shite happened to the Jewish people
Post WWII - Churchill, himself very racist, works to solve the Jewish refugee problem by offering them half of Palestine, despite having promised Palestinians to return the entire country to them.
1948 - UN agrees to give half of Palestine to 7% of the population, Palestinians aren't happy and zionists aren't either.
1948 -67 lots of fighting
1967 - Israel takes over all of Palestine
1967 - now - Israel wipes Palestine off the map, occasionally pretending to talk peace like with Oslo, but always establishing 'facts on the ground' as Netanyahu called them
1988 - Hamas is started in reaction to an ineffectual Palestinian government
Zionists are like Russia is to Ukraine here. A foreign movement that has taken over another country.
The issue is that there are 5 million Israeli Jews and 5 million Palestinians so while Israel has taken too much land to enact the two state solution if you ask them about the 'demographic' problem they'll also freak out. Israel can't exist as a 'Jewish' state if Palestinians have the vote, since they are half the population. And that leaves them where they are. No land left for a viable two state solution and too many Palestinians for them to accept Palestinians with equal rights. Palestinians have nowhere to go and don't want to join the other 5 million Palestinian refugees who were chased out of the country in 1948.
The super quick history, sure to start lots of debate on its own.
1900's Palestine was pluralistic, Muslim, Christian and Jews under British rule.
1900 - 1930's - the zionist movement decided Israel was their new homeland
WWII - holocaust and horrid shite happened to the Jewish people
Post WWII - Churchill, himself very racist, works to solve the Jewish refugee problem by offering them half of Palestine, despite having promised Palestinians to return the entire country to them.
1948 - UN agrees to give half of Palestine to 7% of the population, Palestinians aren't happy and zionists aren't either.
1948 -67 lots of fighting
1967 - Israel takes over all of Palestine
1967 - now - Israel wipes Palestine off the map, occasionally pretending to talk peace like with Oslo, but always establishing 'facts on the ground' as Netanyahu called them
1988 - Hamas is started in reaction to an ineffectual Palestinian government
Zionists are like Russia is to Ukraine here. A foreign movement that has taken over another country.
The issue is that there are 5 million Israeli Jews and 5 million Palestinians so while Israel has taken too much land to enact the two state solution if you ask them about the 'demographic' problem they'll also freak out. Israel can't exist as a 'Jewish' state if Palestinians have the vote, since they are half the population. And that leaves them where they are. No land left for a viable two state solution and too many Palestinians for them to accept Palestinians with equal rights. Palestinians have nowhere to go and don't want to join the other 5 million Palestinian refugees who were chased out of the country in 1948.
It depends a lot on what you think of "committing to followup" though.
As I've pointed out elsewhere, the students at Brown got less than what the students at Columbia rejected.
So depending on what you think a "win" is here, your view may vary.
But if you use 1967 then Israel has to give up all the settlements, which now house about half a million 'settlers'. The UN says all settlements are illegal.
It could be done, but only through international pressure, Israel would never agree.
The PA are as hated as Netanyahu. Turf them all, take Netanyahu and Hamas leaders to the ICC and keep them busy in court. Figure out if there is an alternative to the hard core right wingers in Israeli government. For Palestinians, Marwan Barghouti was once considered the Nelson Mandela of Palestinians, so Israel has kept him in jail forever.
Someone should come in and enforce the ICJ ruling on the apartheid wall and tear down all the walls. Tear down all the walls in the West Bank and tear down the walls around Gaza. It'll take 80 years and $40 billion to rebuild, latest UN guess.
Israel is now in a defacto one state apartheid solution, tear down the walls and give Palestinians the vote and equal rights.
Let them figure it out in parliament.
You know as well as anyone that "number of people killed" isn't the defining characteristic of genocide.
The NYPD humiliating themselves like this with books and bike chains is one small thing I can enjoy about it all as a sort of dark humour.
The fact that you need to draw the line there says a lot. It's obvious why you don't want to start in 1919 when Arab leaders incited mob violence against indigenous Jewish populations or 1948 when Palestinian and Arab leadership chose rejection and war.
Yet when it comes to Israel's Jews, you have said they all should be expelled, even the ones who have dedicated their lives to fighting for Palestinian rights.
I love that you are at least attempting to discuss history. Would you like some of the gaps filled in? I know you refuse to believe Arabs can have agency or ability to make their decisions but...
I actually spent 15 minutes writing up a deep summary of the conflict but I know you won't read and instead will just scream , yell, spam tweets, and fake posts.