Trump threatens to be good for Ukraine, actually

oil&gas

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There’s secret relief in some European quarters — and even Kyiv — that Donald Trump might bring the war to a close. And he’s far more likely to get a better deal from Moscow.

NOVEMBER 15, 2024

If U.S. President-elect Donald Trump manages to engineer a peace deal and bring the Ukraine war to a close he’ll likely get no thanks for it — even though he’d be absolving Western powers of their empty promises and freeing them from an unwinnable war.

Trump’s reelection has now clearly highlighted the West’s folly in promising to stick with this war until Ukraine returns to its 1991 borders. Some leaders had also promised speedy NATO membership, though that was never likely in the foreseeable future — if at all — with or without Trump in the White House.

The mantra that Western powers would back Ukraine for “as long as it takes” was always suspect too, as elections inevitably roll around and have consequences. So was the frequent assertion that no one should push Ukraine into talks because whoever pays the piper calls the tune.

And now, for all the overt hand-wringing over the U.S. election and what it means for Ukraine, some European quarters— even Kyiv, for that matter — are now secretly relieved by the prospect of Trump bringing the war to an end.

After all, if he’s successful, European leaders and American hawks will have an alibi, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will have cover from likely angry front-line Ukrainian soldiers. They’ll all blame him for the broken promises, for the loss of the Donbas and Crimea’s continued annexation — because that’s what it will take to ink a deal. That, and an agreement that Ukraine won’t be joining NATO — neutrality will be a firm concession Moscow will demand.

Some call this an ugly deal. And it is.

In fact, it will undermine Western credibility and it’s a crying shame we are where we are. But if you run down your military forces and arms production for decades, fail to draw enforceable red lines and don’t ask hard questions before making promises or work out what it will take, this is what happens.

Of course, this means Russian President Vladimir Putin’s thuggishness will be rewarded, that there will be no accountability for the bestial nature of his army’s atrocious behavior or the unlawful, detestable deportations from occupied parts of Ukraine to Russia. The axis of autocrats will be emboldened in their determination to smash the old global order.

But there’s no other alternative. Short of a “forever war” or Western powers becoming combatants themselves — or at least putting their economies on a war footing to supply Ukraine with much more than they currently are — that’s the cold hard reality.

And according to a Republican foreign policy expert familiar with Zelenskyy and his circle, Kyiv understands this. Asking to remain anonymous in order to speak candidly, Kyiv now reckons Trump may well turn out to be a better option than Harris, he said.

“At best, Harris would have maintained Joe Biden’s approach — that would have been her policy, and it would have amounted to Ukraine’s slow death. And not so slow anymore — the pace of the Russian gains is quickening,” he noted.

“Also, picture this: Harris having won and Republicans controlling one or both houses of Congress. Under those circumstances, Harris wouldn’t have been able to get any additional assistance through Congress. At least now, with Trump, he can snap his fingers, and the Republicans in the House will vote for more security assistance to Ukraine,” he added.

Plus, Trump doesn’t intend to just throw in the towel. He wants the war to end, but he’s not going to starve Ukraine of arms and supplies at this stage — because as a dealmaker, he knows a Ukrainian collapse would mean Putin calling the shots at the negotiation table.

“Trump has some self-interest in this,” the Republican fixer said. He prides himself on being a master dealmaker and doesn’t want to be seen striking an awful agreement. And over the course of his phone calls with Zelenskyy, and their recent meeting in New York, “he’s instilled some confidence” in the Ukrainian leader that he won’t just abandon Ukraine.

Mike Pompeo, secretary of State in Trump’s first administration, is of the same opinion: “President Trump is not going to allow Vladimir Putin to roll through Ukraine,” he said Monday. “Withdrawing funding from the Ukrainians would result in that, and he will be told that by his entire team. It’s not his M.O. to allow that to happen.”

The danger, though, is that Zelenskyy — also a salesman, the “greatest” in history, according to Trump — doesn’t give enough ground and Trump starts seeing Ukraine as the problem.

“The Ukrainians need to make sure Trump doesn’t see them as the obstacle to peace, and they shouldn’t be the first to say no, even when some silly ideas are thrown at them. They need the Russians to keep saying no to him, so the Ukrainians appear the reasonable party. Then Trump will conclude that the only way to bring the Russians to the table is to help the Ukrainians,” the fixer told POLITICO.

But as of yet, Trump doesn’t have a detailed plan, and opinions among his advisers vary — though they do understand the military reality on the ground. Despite some media reports, Trump hasn’t yet designated a team to handle a peace initiative either. However, Ukraine is being told it will have to make serious territorial concessions, and that the prize for doing so will be 80 percent of the country remaining free and independent, said another Republican familiar with the conversations being held within MAGA circles.

So far, there’s no one tipped or announced for top national security roles in the new administration who would object to a push for such a deal. But Kyiv has been heartened there are hawks among his picks so far.

After Trump’s win, Florida Senator Marco Rubio, who’s being tipped as the new secretary of State, said that Russia’s war against Ukraine had reached a “stalemate” that’s costing lives and “needs to be brought to a conclusion.” He described Ukrainians as “incredibly brave and strong,” but also noted “the reality of the war.”

Zelenskyy understands that too — not that he’s going to shout it from the rooftops. As war-weariness mounts, public opinion in Ukraine has been changing, especially among the young, who are the most willing to accept limited outcomes. According to a poll conducted this summer, only 40 percent of those aged 18 to 25 think Ukraine should fight until it liberates all its territory.

Another survey from earlier this year showed that 72 percent of respondents agree that Ukraine should look for a diplomatic solution as well — a notable increase from May 2022. Similarly, a July survey from ZN.ua media found that 44 percent of Ukrainians think it’s time for peace negotiations — again, up from the summer before.

But what Kyiv fears most is that any secured deal will turn into an unsustainable peace — that Putin will just regroup and take another crack at Ukraine down the line. So, the big question is how to ensure this is more than an interregnum and what Kyiv is left with can develop unhindered and untouched by Moscow.

 
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Ceiling Cat

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There’s secret relief in some European quarters — and even Kyiv — that Donald Trump might bring the war to a close. And he’s far more likely to get a better deal from Moscow.

If Trump were to end the war, it would likely be part of a pre-arranged deal with Putin. Russia’s military arsenal has been significantly depleted, its economy is struggling, and the country has suffered around 60,000 killed in action,. More than the total U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War. Putin is clearly desperate to find a way out of Ukraine. If Trump steps in to broker an end to the conflict, it would probably be little more than political theater.
 
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oil&gas

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.....................
Russia’s military arsenal has been significantly depleted, its economy is struggling, and the country has suffered around 60,000 killed in action,. ...............

Number of Ukrainian civilians and civilians alone perished could be about
20% of that number. It will be a job well done by Trump if he can bring the war
to an end regardless of whatever secret deal he cut with Putin. It is not like
Biden or Harris can do better than Trump in saving Ukrainian lives and lost
territories.
 
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Ceiling Cat

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Number of Ukrainian civilians and civilians alone perished could be about
20% of that number. It will be a job well done by Trump if he can bring the war
to an end regardless of whatever secret deal he cut with Putin. It is not like
Biden or Harris can do better than Trump in saving Ukrainian lives and lost
territories.

If there is a secret deal between Trump and Putin, then they are pulling a scam on the world. Trump will be seen as a peace maker extraordinaire and Putin that desperately wanting to get out of Ukraine because the dead bodies are piling up under his chin, His country has expended half its military and will be in economic straits for decades.

If you say that Biden and Harris did not or could not de better, it is because Trump deals from the bottom of the deck.
 

oil&gas

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If there is a secret deal between Trump and Putin, then they are pulling a scam on the world. Trump will be seen as a peace maker extraordinaire and Putin that desperately wanting to get out of Ukraine because the dead bodies are piling up under his chin, .......................

If the secret deal cut serves Putin's interest no more than for him to
halt the invasion without losing face then it is just diplomacy behind
closed door. The conflict can carry on into the future even after fighting
ends on the battlefield. If Trump is awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for
his role as the peacemaker in ending the war it will be no more a scam than
the same prize awarded to Henry Kissinger was.
 
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oil&gas

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Aside from making it harder for Trump to stop the war in 240 hours
after he becomes president what good you think it will do to Biden and
Harris to prolong the war?

Biden Allows Ukraine to Strike Russia With Long-Range U.S. Missiles

 

squeezer

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Aside from making it harder for Trump to stop the war in 240 hours
after he becomes president what good you think it will do to Biden and
Harris to prolong the war?

Do you mean stop the war by giving Putin all his evil little heart desires as a gift from his number one fan?
 
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Ceiling Cat

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If the secret deal cut serves Putin's interest no more than for him to
halt the invasion without losing face then it is just diplomacy behind
closed door. The conflict can carry on into the future even after fighting
ends on the battlefield. If Trump is awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for
his role as the peacemaker in ending the war it will be no more a scam than
the same prize awarded to Henry Kissinger was.

If Putin and Trump stops the war with a hoax, then these two have perpetrated a horrendous lie on the world. I do not want to live in the Emerald City with the Wizard of Trump as the ruler. If you wish to live in the fairyland, this will be your own choice. What will you be asking the Wizard of Trump for, a plastic medal of courage, a heart shaped ticking clock or a brain diploma? Don't worry, he had plenty made for the MAGA people, so there is no shortage.
 

The Oracle

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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece
If there is a secret deal between Trump and Putin, then they are pulling a scam on the world. Trump will be seen as a peace maker extraordinaire and Putin that desperately wanting to get out of Ukraine because the dead bodies are piling up under his chin, His country has expended half its military and will be in economic straits for decades.

If you say that Biden and Harris did not or could not de better, it is because Trump deals from the bottom of the deck.

Now who's the conspiracy theorist....
 

DesRicardo

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He'll only get thanks if it's a good deal.

If it's a deal that favours Russia then another assassination attempt is warranted.
 

oil&gas

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It is not a hoax if it turns out Zelensky is willing to go
along with Trump.

If Putin and Trump stops the war with a hoax, then these two have perpetrated a horrendous lie on the world. I do not want to live in the Emerald City with the Wizard of Trump as the ruler. If you wish to live in the fairyland, this will be your own choice. What will you be asking the Wizard of Trump for, a plastic medal of courage, a heart shaped ticking clock or a brain diploma? Don't worry, he had plenty made for the MAGA people, so there is no shortage.
 
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JohnLarue

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If Trump were to end the war, it would likely be part of a pre-arranged deal with Putin. Russia’s military arsenal has been significantly depleted, its economy is struggling, and the country has suffered around 60,000 killed in action,. More than the total U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War. Putin is clearly desperate to find a way out of Ukraine. If Trump steps in to broker an end to the conflict, it would probably be little more than political theater.


so

if he does nothing and the fighting continues - he is an asshole
if he does nothing and a truce is declared via some other route - he is an asshole
if he steps in and cant broker a deal -he is an asshole
if he steps in and brokers a deal - he is an asshole

another option is you just think he is an asshole independent of what does or does not accomplish wrt Ukraine/ Russia ?
this would not be totally unexpected as he certainly is polarizing and many generally do believe him to be an asshole

can you describe a scenario in which he accomplishes something positive wrt Ukraine/ Russia and would earn an acknowledgement from you such as:

good work, .............asshole
or
Hey asshole ...... well done

?
 
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Ceiling Cat

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If we allow Putin to dictate the terms of his withdrawal from Ukraine, he will likely try to repeat this aggression against another nations. The global investment in Ukraine has been enormous, both in terms of military aid and support for the fight against Russian tyranny. It has come at a significant cost to Russia, both in terms of lives lost, military equipment destroyed, and the severe damage inflicted on its economy by sanctions. Putin likely regrets the invasion. He expected a quick, decisive war, similar to his annexation of Crimea, but the reality has been far different. He was hoping to seize more territory, particularly in the west, to secure new ports for Russian oil exports. With that plan failing, he may want to withdraw without facing war reparations.

However, President Zelensky will not simply accept an end to the fighting without resolution. Zelensky’s goal is not just peace, but the return of Crimea to Ukraine. While I believe achieving this is unlikely, Ukraine’s demands will be a key part of any settlement. Putin, for his part, will want to ensure that no war reparations are paid to Ukraine and will push for guarantees that Ukraine will never join NATO.

On the issue of reparations, if Putin refuses to pay, Russia will likely face further sanctions from Western nations. As for NATO, Putin will probably get his way. Ukraine’s accession to the alliance is highly unlikely, as admitting Ukraine would risk further escalation and provide Putin with a justification for attacking Ukraine or any other neighboring country.

In the end, the resolution will likely involve difficult compromises, but there are clear limits to what the West and Ukraine can accept.


For those who see Trump as a hero and believe he always speaks the truth, I'd like to ask: how exactly did Trump manage to turn Kim Jong Un into a "friend" so quickly? It’s hard to ignore the possibility that Trump offered Kim a significant reward to play along with the spectacle of their summit, a spectacle that was largely staged for political gain, and one that was funded by American taxpayers. How else can we explain the rush to embrace a brutal dictator with so little to show for it, other than a few photo ops and empty promises?


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oil&gas

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Ukraine Prioritizes Security, Not Territory, as Trump Pushes Truce Talks

President-elect Donald J. Trump may accelerate the timetable for a truce. Kyiv views guarantees against renewed aggression as crucial to any settlement.

Andrew Kramer
Nov. 13, 2024

Ukrainian officials have said for months that they would not cede territory occupied by Russia in any peace settlement. Now, as Ukraine contemplates an accelerated timetable for negotiations pushed by President-elect Donald J. Trump, it is putting at least as much importance on obtaining security guarantees as on where an eventual cease-fire line might fall.

With Ukrainian forces steadily losing ground in the east, two senior officials said that defending Ukraine’s interests in potential talks would hinge not on territorial boundaries, which are likely to be determined by the fighting, but on what assurances are in place to make a cease-fire hold.

“Talks should be based on guarantees,” said Roman Kostenko, the chairman of the Ukrainian Parliament’s Defense and Intelligence Committee. “For Ukraine, nothing is more important.”

A senior Ukrainian official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive negotiations, was more direct. “The territorial question is extremely important, but it’s still the second question,” the official said, “The first question is security guarantees.”

Ukraine sets its borders based on its 1991 declaration of independence. Russia has since gained control of about 20 percent of Ukrainian land, but Kyiv would not formally renounce its claim over any territory under Russian occupation, Mr. Kostenko said.

That appears to be the approach Ukraine is taking to justify any possible deal in which Russia would retain control of Ukrainian land. In October, President Volodymyr Zelensky, discussing a cease-fire, said “Everyone understands that no matter what path we take, legally no one will recognize the occupied territories as belonging to other countries.”

Skepticism about Russian commitment to a settlement runs deep in Ukraine, which had a bitter experience with cease-fires in 2014 and 2015 after sparring with Russian-backed forces along the eastern border. The cease-fires did not prevent more fighting, which simmered for eight years until Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022.

Officials in Kyiv have been seeking membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization as a guarantee against renewed attacks from Russia. Western officials have signaled they want Ukraine to join NATO, but not on any kind of accelerated timetable.

Security guarantees, and not land, figure to be the thorniest issue in any peace deal. When Ukraine and Russia held peace talks in 2022, Russia eventually balked at the proposed deal’s critical component: an arrangement binding other countries to come to Ukraine’s defense if it were ever attacked again.

Russia has long said that it considers Ukrainian entry into NATO unacceptable. It has signaled that such a move would be a deal breaker for any cease-fire agreement, while also indicating it will want to keep control of the territory it has captured in Ukraine.

Discussions over a potential settlement have heated up since the election last week of Mr. Trump, who has vowed to press for immediate talks. That’s a shift from the Biden administration’s longtime position that the timing and terms of any settlement should be left to Ukraine. Mr. Trump has been openly skeptical about continuing American aid to Ukraine, and has said he can bring about an end to the war in one day — without saying how.

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has repeatedly tried to portray Ukraine as the intransigent party when it comes to peace talks, while hinting at settlement terms that are only favorable to him. Ukrainian and Western officials view his stance as a demand for capitulation.

An immediate issue for any cease-fire along the front is Ukraine’s occupation of parts of Kursk, in southwest Russia, which the Ukrainian military invaded in August. Kyiv sees the territory as a potential bargaining chip during talks, but in Moscow, Ukraine’s departure is widely seen as a prerequisite for beginning negotiations. American officials say that some 50,000 Russian and North Korean troops have massed in Kursk in preparation for a counteroffensive to drive Ukraine from Russian land.

If Ukrainians are driven from Kursk, Russia could accept a cease-fire along the front line by next spring, Konstantin Zatulin, a lawmaker in Mr. Putin’s political party, said in an interview on Monday. “Everything will be based on facts,” he said. “Everything we have is ours; everything Ukraine has is Ukraine’s.”

To some of Moscow’s hard-liners, the points of dispute, including territorial claims, make a settlement by next spring unlikely.

“It will be difficult for us to come to an agreement precisely because even our softest position involves additional territorial concessions from Ukraine,” said Konstantin Malofeev, a conservative businessman allied with the Kremlin.

The senior Ukrainian official said Kyiv would want to ensure any cease-fire line would not hurt the country’s economic recovery after the war by, for example, leaving industrial areas too insecure for investment. The width of a demilitarized zone — a buffer area between the two armies — would also be a key consideration, the officials said.

There are competing factions in Mr. Trump’s orbit who have expressed a range of views on Ukraine. A position voiced by JD Vance, the American vice president-elect, largely aligns with Kremlin talking points. His former secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, has advocated more robust military support than the Biden administration has been willing to offer.

Perhaps the most detailed clue of Mr. Trump’s views came in a July interview with Fox News.

“I would tell Zelensky, no more — you got to make a deal,” Mr. Trump said of President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine. “I would tell Putin, If you don’t make a deal, we’re going to give him a lot.”

Mr. Trump and Mr. Zelensky spoke last week, but neither side made public what was discussed.

Mr. Zelensky has been appealing for support in the United States and European nations for what he calls a “peace through strength” strategy that would shore up Ukraine’s army and potentially improve its position on the battlefield before talks commence.

But Ukraine’s plan is only one of several approaches, including a proposal by China and Brazil and another by Turkey that would address security for Black Sea shipping but could be expanded to include other issues.

For now, Ukraine is losing ground as quickly as at almost any time since the first days of the invasion. Russia has honed an effective if costly tactic of grinding forward through small infantry assaults, trading personnel for land. With too few soldiers, Ukraine has resorted to shuffling troops between hot spots on the front to prevent a collapse of the lines.

In its own plan, called the Peace Formula — widely seen as its starting point for negotiations — Ukraine has laid out 10 demands, including a full withdrawal, prosecution of war crimes and payment of reparations. At a summit in June, at which Russia was not present, those demands were not addressed.

But about 80 countries endorsed three other points in Ukraine’s plan: an exchange of prisoners of war and Russia’s release of civilian hostages; safeguarding nuclear sites such as the occupied Zaporizhzhia power plant; and guaranteeing free commercial shipping on the Black Sea.

Since then, Mr. Zelensky has softened Ukraine’s position, sending the foreign minister to China to welcome a Chinese role in talks and saying Russia could be invited to a future negotiating session on the Peace Formula.

Support for ceding territory in exchange for peace is rising among Ukrainians. A poll by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in October showed 32 percent of Ukrainians would support such an agreement, up from 19 percent last year.

But securing a favorable settlement for Ukraine while Russia is advancing would be extremely difficult, said Andriy Zagorodnyuk, a Ukrainian former minister of defense. Russian negotiators would be unlikely to settle only for territory their army had already taken.

“Whoever is in a winning position sets the terms,” he said. “It is true for governments or businesses.”

Officials in Kyiv have also said that a robust arsenal of conventional weapons — to be provided by the West — would enable Ukraine to quickly strike back, serving as a deterrent to a resumption of hostilities.

 
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JohnLarue

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If we allow......


yeah yeah, yeah
I am sure all that is very insightful ,well written and perhaps even convincing to those that endured the huge, glaring, retina burning. red text by actually reading it

but what we really want to know is
can you describe a scenario in which he accomplishes something positive wrt Ukraine/ Russia and would earn an acknowledgement from you such as:

good work, .............asshole
or
Hey asshole ...... well done
?

you know like if he somehow shortened to conflict by a couple weeks and saved thousands of lives would you upgrade him to say:

atta boy......... ass wipe

correct me if i am wrong but i believe that ass wipe is just marginally better than asshole
would you give him that slight tip of the cap ?

you know, for saving the lives and such
 
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richaceg

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If we allow Putin to dictate the terms of his withdrawal from Ukraine, he will likely try to repeat this aggression against another nations. The global investment in Ukraine has been enormous, both in terms of military aid and support for the fight against Russian tyranny. It has come at a significant cost to Russia, both in terms of lives lost, military equipment destroyed, and the severe damage inflicted on its economy by sanctions. Putin likely regrets the invasion. He expected a quick, decisive war, similar to his annexation of Crimea, but the reality has been far different. He was hoping to seize more territory, particularly in the west, to secure new ports for Russian oil exports. With that plan failing, he may want to withdraw without facing war reparations.

However, President Zelensky will not simply accept an end to the fighting without resolution. Zelensky’s goal is not just peace, but the return of Crimea to Ukraine. While I believe achieving this is unlikely, Ukraine’s demands will be a key part of any settlement. Putin, for his part, will want to ensure that no war reparations are paid to Ukraine and will push for guarantees that Ukraine will never join NATO.

On the issue of reparations, if Putin refuses to pay, Russia will likely face further sanctions from Western nations. As for NATO, Putin will probably get his way. Ukraine’s accession to the alliance is highly unlikely, as admitting Ukraine would risk further escalation and provide Putin with a justification for attacking Ukraine or any other neighboring country.

In the end, the resolution will likely involve difficult compromises, but there are clear limits to what the West and Ukraine can accept.


For those who see Trump as a hero and believe he always speaks the truth, I'd like to ask: how exactly did Trump manage to turn Kim Jong Un into a "friend" so quickly? It’s hard to ignore the possibility that Trump offered Kim a significant reward to play along with the spectacle of their summit, a spectacle that was largely staged for political gain, and one that was funded by American taxpayers. How else can we explain the rush to embrace a brutal dictator with so little to show for it, other than a few photo ops and empty promises?


XuWA6Kx.png
Who's we? it's not like "we" also let Putin invade Ukraine...again...who is this "we". Putin rolled through Ukraine and Biden and Zelensky and NATO didn't do much...Biden was the weakest US leader the US ever had...Hamas terrorism and Russia invasion....that' what he will go down with his legacy.
 
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JohnLarue

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well Jed
first of all thank you for switching from the annoying huge red text.
perhaps more people will actually take the time to read your message

you were asked a simple question based on your comment
If Trump steps in to broker an end to the conflict, it would probably be little more than political theater.

this comment did raise the obvious question what can Trump do that you would view favourable ?
after all if saving lives is not good enough for you , then what is your rational expectation of Trump

since you refuse to answer, do we assume that you also view anyone who questions you as an asshole?
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